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kjv@Daniel:7 @ @ RandyP comments: There is not a mention of rapture in this vision that I can see. These saints appear to be on earth the entire time. For a measured time they are worn down and overcome by the fourth beast. With an eye toward harmony with other scriptures we must find a way to explain these saints with the saints that are raptured. One way would be to say that these saints became believers because of or after the rapture. Include these with the Messianic Jews who will have their veil lifted and you have quite a number.

kjv@Revelation:7 @ @ RandyP comments: There are those 144k of the tribes of Israel that are sealed and on earth. There are are a innumerable number present at the throne from all nations and tongues washed in the Blood before the opening of this seal. Somewhere in this time frame many gather that either the dead in Christ or the actual living church has been raptured. When exactly is debated. Most assume that the dead in Christ are already with Christ.

kjv@Revelation:9:4 @ @ RandyP comments: We know from earlier that the foreheads of 144k have been sealed. Now we see that those 144k are spared from this terrible plague. What about the Gentile Church? It is for this reason and more that many believe that the Church has left the storyline completely having been raptured (they have not specifically been mentioned since chapter 3), they are a part of the numerous host surrounding the throne. There may be new tribulation believers haven seen these occurrences first hand of course.

kjv@Revelation:13:7 @ @ RandyP comments: Are the saints the not yet raptured Church? To make war with the saints suggests that the saints are no longer dispersed or that they are dispersed but banded into target-able formations. To be overcome as the Church however rubs against a whole lot of scripture, namely kjv@1John:2:14 kjv@1John:4:4 kjv@1John:5:4 kjv@John:14:16 kjv@2Peter:2:19 kjv@2Peter:2:20 kjv@1Corinthians:3:16 kjv@Hebrews:1:14

kjv@Revelation:13:7 @ @ RandyP comments: The point I am trying to make is that if the Church and these saints are one in the same, then it is the Church that is overcome. In order for the Church to be overcome then the Holy Spirit has to be overcome or He has to leave us to our own. Scripture suggests that neither can happen! To be overcome is to be put back into bondage to. The Church being put back into bondage after the blood and resurrection of Christ? After the forever indwelling of the Comforter? Even for a short time - Where is the sense? If instead these are new believers after the Church has been raptured, they are by virtue of this peculiar time frame merely transitional (Spirit-less/Church-less) believers still awaiting the Spirit with patience and faith.

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